Conversation with a Wesleyan About Calvinism

Wesleyan: Calvinists don’t actually love people, that requires free will. Their god decrees they act like they love Mormons whom they also believe god decreed to burn in hell forever.

Me: You're bearing false witness in public. I would suggest repenting.

Wesleyan: Calvinism has turned Heavenly Father into a monster, if anyone needs to repent it is those who believe in this blasphemous theology.

Me: I assume you're a Mormon. Do you think Calvinists go to heaven when they die?

Wesleyan: I am not a Mormon. I think Calvinists will go to Heaven.

Me: According to you, Calvinists "don’t actually love people". You refer to "their god" as if they are believing in a different God than the God of the Bible. You said Calvinism "turned Heavenly Father into a monster". You said that Calvinists need to repent, and they believe a "blasphemous theology". But they're still going to heaven? You sound extremely confused.

Wesleyan: Just because a person may be wrong about their theology does not mean that they’re not saved.

Me: So you think a person can believe blasphemous theology and make God into a monster, while they only pretend to love others but actually have no love, and they're still saved. What kind of church do you go to? What denomination do you call yourself?

Wesleyan: I didn’t say Calvinists pretend to love people I said that they act like they do because in their theology God has decreed all things, so this “love” is more a reaction to what is already decreed, it’s not genuine. Also, just because your Calvinist theology is incorrect does not mean Heavenly Father is going to throw you in hell. He reads the heart of people and understands the full context of everyone’s life.

Me: You said Calvinists "don’t actually love people" and that they "act like" they love Mormons. That means you think they're pretending to love but they actually don't love. Now it seems you just want to play games with words. Since you believe that God is the one who judges people by reading their hearts, and you believe that Calvinists are saved, what motivated you to come here and leave such judgemental comments? Why do you think it's okay to publically lie about an entire group of Christians and then refuse to repent when you get called out for misrepresenting them?

Wesleyan: I’m telling the truth about Calvinism. Your god has decreed this very conversation. Calvinists don't know how to actually love because they’re automatons, ie programs. Love requires free will. A Calvinist may say they love someone but it’s a lie, they love Calvinism and then project it as love towards others. It’s all very sad. Heavenly Father still loves you, but you’re missing out on the depth of His love by making Him the programmer of evil.

Me: #1 No, you're not telling the truth. That's why I've been trying to tell you that you're bearing false witness. You're describing a straw-man misrepresentation of Calvinism. Just quote me a single prominent Calvinist who teaches that we're automatons with no free will. Quote something they wrote or link me a video with a timestamp. I've been studying Calvinism for over 8 years and I'm very familiar with all of the big names. You're slandering an entire group of God's children. I'm trying to tell you that you're wrong but instead of admitting your mistake you've decided to double down on your sin. Now I'm asking you to prove what you're saying by showing it to me. Show me a Calvinist who teaches what you say they believe.

#2 You said "A Calvinist may say they love someone but it’s a lie, they love Calvinism and then project it as love towards others". So you can read hearts? You know the thoughts and intentions of every Calvinist and you have determined that they're all liars and fakers? Who do you think you are to say this? You should honestly be ashamed of yourself. You're in serious sin right now.

Wesleyan: Do you genuinely love your enemies? Also, does your Calvinist god decree all things or not?

Wesleyan: are you going to reply, or....?

Me: You totally ignored what I said but then you get impatient because I don't answer you fast enough? I'm not just hovering over my keyboard waiting for you. Yes, I love my enemies. And God declares the end from the beginning and He does whatever pleases Him. Now I expect you to fully respond to my previous comment.

Wesleyan: Q: You said "A Calvinist may say they love someone but it’s a lie, they love Calvinism and then project it as love towards others". So you can read hearts?

A: No. I read theologies.

Q: You know the thoughts and intentions of every Calvinist and you have determined that they're all liars and fakers?

A: No. they’re actions are defined by their theology.

Q:Who do you think you are to say such things?

A: Your god has decreed that i say them. This whole exchange, according to your theology, was decreed so why get upset? Would you love people if you weren’t a Calvinist?

Me: You seem like a very dishonest or deceptive person. I really hope you're not intentionally doing that but I have to wonder about a person who responds the way you're responding. Maybe you're not even aware that you're doing it. I hope that's the case. I really don't see any point in continuing this any further if you're just playing games.

Wesleyan: I’m sorry the truth is bothersome to you. It’s not surprising coming from a theology where the god damns people to hell before they’re born and who decrees all sinful actions to happen. Good luck with that! Praying for you to leave this blasphemous cult

Me: See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe you think you're telling the truth but you're not. And when you're corrected on it, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on your sin. I don't know who you've been learning from but they have taught you lies and now you're spreading those lies in public. I asked what kind of denomination you belong to but you wouldn't answer me. I asked you to quote me someone who teaches what you think I believe but you wouldn't do it. I corrected you on your misrepresentation but you dug your heels in deeper. Sorry, but you seem very deceptive because of the way you've behaved in this conversation.

Every Christian has to deal with the fact that God knows everything, including who goes to hell, yet He creates them anyway knowing they'll go to hell. That's not something that only Calvinists believe. It's what the Bible says. So you have to answer the same questions. The difference is that I actually have an answer. You also have to answer why a good God allows sin to happen. This is not a Calvinist belief, it's a Christian belief. I say He allows sin to happen because He has a purpose for it, because that's what the Bible says.

Good luck? I don't believe in luck. I believe in a sovereign God who accomplishes all things according to His purposes. There's no room for luck in Christian theology. And you can save your prayers if you're praying for me to leave a cult because I'm not in a cult. I'm a born again Christian. I believe all humans are sinners who are going to hell unless they come to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. I believe the only way to be saved is by God's grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and it's all for God's glory alone, according to scripture alone. I believe that God is absolutely sovereign and His will is done in heaven and on earth. I'm sorry you think there's something cultic about that. Keep studying the Bible. God bless you and your family. Goodbye.

Wesleyan: I’m a Christian, member of no denomination officially but attend a Wesleyan Methodist church. Thank you for answering my questions. You validated everything I was saying. Heavenly Father gave us free will, that brings with it good and bad, but without freedom we cannot know love, we cannot understand how and why He loves all of us unless we are free to act. Love requires relationship. I feel bad for Calvinists, their god does not actually love their elect, they’re only used to glorify his deity. Meanwhile untold billions are in tortuous hell forever (also for his glory). It’s all very sad and blasphemous.

Me: ​When you say that my answers to your questions validated everything you were saying, were you talking about these questions? "Do you genuinely love your enemies? Also, does your Calvinist god decree all things or not?" I'm assuming that's what you're talking about. I answered "Yes I love my enemies. And God declares the end from the beginning and He does whatever pleases Him." How does that validate anything for you?

I love my enemies enough to take time out of my day to have conversations with them about God. I talk to Muslims, Mormons, Atheists, all kinds of people. They often treat me with no respect at all. They lie, the use deceitful tactics, they abuse scripture, they malign God, they cuss me out, you name it. I once had a guy tell me that he was praying for my house to burn down with my family in it. But I still take time out of my life to try and reason with these people and I even pray for them. I take time out of my life to pray for people who treat me this way. So yes, I do love my enemies. I could tell you more ways that I love my enemies but I don't have to. This does nothing to validate anything you've said because you think Calvinists don't really love anyone. It's an absurd thing to believe. It's a lie. You need to repent.

As for God's decree, God says this about Himself in Isaiah 46:10 "I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose..." This definitely doesn't validate your position. It rather obviously destroys your position and validates mine. I suggest conforming your beliefs about God to what He has revealed about Himself in scripture and you won't have this problem anymore. This is also something that requires your repentance.

You said "Heavenly Father gave us free will, that brings with it good and bad, but without freedom we cannot know love, we cannot understand how and why He loves all of us unless we are free to act. Love requires relationship." Tell me from where in the Bible do you get any part of that? Please show me a single Bible verse that says God gave us free will so that we can understand love. Or quote me any early church father who believed anything like this. Show me anything besides your own opinions that would demonstrate that this is even a Christian concept. The longer this conversation continues, the more obvious it becomes that I'm getting my beliefs from scripture and you're getting yours from somewhere else.

Wesleyan: That’s wonderful, as long as you understand that that love was their by your God given free will to do so in association with the Holy Spirit, not because Heavenly Father decreed you to act and think those things. It’s a crucial distinction to understand.

Me: That's all you're going to say?

*He never responded again*