Conversation with a Catholic: Purgatory

Me: Anyone who believes in purgatory does not understand the Christian gospel.

Catholic: Well, we do. Scripture refers God as refiner's fire (Malachi 3:2) who put some INTO FIRE as one refines silver and test gold (Zechariah. 13:8-9)

Me: It's inappropriate to ignore the context of what those passages are about. Neither of them is talking about the need for a person to undergo purification after death. Purgatory is a foreign concept to scripture. It was a foreign concept to the Jews before us, and it's still a foreign concept to Christians today. Either Jesus atoned for your sins or He didn't. You either have faith in His work and trust 100% in Him, or you don't. You either go to heaven or you go to hell. I suggest putting your faith fully in Jesus Christ.

Catholic: Malachi and Zechariah belong to the Bible, so even it is not mentioned by name (and neither is Trinity or Triune) purgatory is scriptural and is NOT foreign concept. Jesus died for our sins, Yes, even Catholics believe that. But that is not the only thing He did for us. God through Him will make us righteous as Scripture says through Christ we are made righteous (Rom. 5:19). Follwing Reformers you believe you are counted as righteous, but NOT made righteous. That is the reason why they (and you) reject purgatory.

Me: The doctrine of the Trinity is biblically inescapable. That's why we are Trinitarians. I'm not just saying the word purgatory isn't in the Bible. I'm saying the very concept is nowhere in the Bible. To compare the doctrine of purgatory to the doctrine of the Trinity is absurd. I'm not following reformers. I'm following scripture. "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1) Do you believe that you currently have peace with God?

Catholic: That is your personal and subjective opinion. You are entitled to it and so do those who reject Trinity. The concept of purgatory is stated in Malachi 3:2 and Zechariah 13:8-9.

Why did you change the topic from purgatory to justification? To answer your question: I have no problem with Rom. 5:1. Catholics do believe in justification by faith, without the word alone, added by the Reformers. New Testament was written in Greek and the Greek tenses of "justified by faith" of Rom. 5:11 does NOT indicate a completed justification by faith. I do have peace with God even if I have to undergo purgatory. Those in purgatory will go to heaven.

Me: You proved the point of my original comment. You cannot believe in purgatory if you understand the gospel. You do not understand the gospel if you think you have peace with God but still have to pay for your own sins. It's either one or the other. It cannot be both.

Catholic: What you wrote is also subjective. You can say the same to those who reject Trinity as "you do not understand the Bible".

Purgatory is the work of God. Scripture won't call God refiner's fire without any reason.

Me: Are you authorized or qualified to interpret Malachi 3 or Zechariah 13? Has Rome provided you with an infallible interpretation for those passages? Why do you believe that the mere mention of a refiner's fire means that you'll still need to pay for some sins after you die?

Catholic: You are entitled to disagree with me. Instead of asking whether I am qualified or authorized, if I were you, then you would write about your understanding of Malachi 3:2 (why God is called as refiner's fire) and Zechariah 13:8-9.

Me: Why do you believe that the mere mention of a refiner's fire means that you'll still need to pay for some sins after you die?

Catholic: First I do NOT PAY for my sins. It is your caricature. It is God who cleanses me through purgatory.

If your son came home covered with mud, then you would cleanse him, using water from garden hose. It is NOT payment your son must make for being covered with mud before he can enter your house.

Me: Why do you believe that the mere mention of a refiner's fire means that you'll still need to expiate/atone for some sins after you die?

Catholic: I do not and cannot atone for my sins in purgatory. It is your caricature. The sins committed after we become Christ follower does affect us - read Hebrews 10:26.

The main reason why you keep on rejecting purgatory is because you believe through faith alone you receive righteousness of Christ covering your sins. It was taught by the Reformers. That is why purgatory becomes obsolete - all your sins committed after you believe in Him, will be covered by His righteousness and God won't be able to see them.

Me: In 2 Maccabees 12:45, what did Judas Maccabeus do on behalf of the dead?

Catholic: Judas Maccabeus lived under the Old Covenant of the Law. For us, who are under New Covenant, the atonement was already done by Christ.

Me: Since atonement has been done by Christ, why do people go to purgatory? What is happening to them in purgatory?

Catholic: Your question was already answered. When you became a believer, your sins were atoned by Christ. But you still continue sinning. If you think those sins were already atoned by Christ then you nullify Heb 10:26. Purgatory is purification because nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27).

Me: So the people in purgatory are there because they have sins that Christ did not atone for. That means they still need atonement. But you said that you cannot atone for your sins in purgatory. Please explain how their sins are atoned for, or expiated, or removed, or purified, whatever term you use. If it's not the atonement provided by Christ, and it's not your own atonement, then please tell me how it works.

Catholic: I NEVER say I atone my or somebody sins in purgatory. You are forcing your concept to me. Heb 10:26 clearly says that sins committed after knowing Christ affect us, even after His single atonement. If you disagreee with with I wrote (which you are entitled) then tell me your understanding of Heb 10:26, Malachi 3:2 and Zechariah 13:8-9!

How God cleanses sins in purgatory is explained in Zech 13:8-9, i.e. through FIRE. A silversmith will cleanse a silver object from impurities with fire. He knows that he completes his works when he can see his face reflected on it.

Me: What concept did I force on you? I asked you to define your own belief so that I can use what you've told me. You said "I do not and cannot atone for my sins in purgatory." You also said " When you became a believer, your sins were atoned by Christ. But you still continue sinning". So when people go to purgatory it's because they have sins which have not been atoned for, and since these sins are not atoned by Jesus, and they're not atoned by you either, I'm asking you to explain this.

Catholic: I already answered the question. Sins in purgatory are cleansed, NOT ATONED by me or others. You are forcing me to use atonement in order to corner me. At the same time you NEVER explain your understanding of Malachi 3:2, Zechariah 13:8-9 and Heb 10:26.

Me: You can call it cleansing or whatever else you want to call it. I'm asking you a specific question that you seem unwilling to answer. I think anyone who reads this thread will be able to see how you keep trying to dodge the point. As for my understanding of Malachi 3:2, Zechariah 13:8-9 and Heb 10:26, why should I even bother? Only Rome can interpret scripture, right? So my interpretation will be rejected no matter what I say. No matter how obvious it is that those passages aren't saying anything about dead Christians needing to be cleansed or purified, it doesn't matter because Rome has spoken. What I'm wondering is why you bother citing those passages since your beliefs don't have to come from scripture at all. Be honest with me. If Malachi and Zechariah didn't mention a refining, you would still believe in purgatory wouldn't you? Even if Rome appealed to zero Bible verses, you would still believe in purgatory because Rome has declared that you must believe in purgatory. It has nothing to do with scripture so why pretend that it matters what Malachi or Zechariah teaches? I would respect the honesty in just admitting that you believe whatever Rome tells you to believe regardless of what's in the Bible.

Catholic: You don't have to agree with what Rome said and neither do I have to agree with whatever you believe. You are entitled to interpret any verse in any way you like but nobody is under obligation to accept your interpretation.

You cleverly try to change the issue with your statement "if Malachi and Zechariah did not mention refining, you would still believe in purgatory". I can ask you the same: If there is no Bible you would still believe in Christ or not?

I NEVER say that I believe whatever Rome tells me regardless of what is in the Bible. Do not put your words in my mouth. On the other hand, it is you who refuse what the Bible says because it contradicts with what you believe.

Me: I'm glad you think I don't have to believe what Rome says, but Rome disagrees with you. Rome says I must believe what Rome says. The Council of Trent made that very clear.

I wasn't changing the issue, I was making a point. Please don't pretend that you get your beliefs from the Bible. Roman Catholic beliefs don't have to be in scripture. Every Catholic apologist says this. So why are you citing Malachi or Hebrews or any other scripture as if it matters what they say? Just tell me that Rome commands me to believe it. I would respect that a lot more.

No if there was no Bible I probably would not believe in Christ. The Bible is the source of all of our information about Him so what else would I have?

Catholic: We do believe Scripture as authority but do not believe Scripture as the only final authority. Scripture says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth. We get our belief from Scripture but not only from Scripture. I quoted Scripture to show purgatory because if I do not then you will ignore it. It is absurd that you believe in Scripture as only final authority but you reject it. You may disagree with what I wrote, but at least you should explain from your side what those verses mean. You DID NOT.

You made a good answer that without the Bible you would not be a Christian. Tell me who decided to determine the content of the Bible? There is no single verse in the Bible telling you of how many and which books belong to the Bible.

Me: "Who decided to determine the content of the Bible?" It's an oddly worded question but I assume you're asking who determined the canon. It certainly was not Rome since the canon was already established before there was anything called the "Roman Catholic Church". Roman Catholicism is a religion that slowly developed over many centuries. This is something that any Catholic apologist will tell you. If you think Rome is the one who determined the canon, why did it take them 1500 years to do it? But since God is the author of the Bible He's the one who determined its content and therefore the canon was determined by Him. Now before this conversation goes further away from the original topic, I still say that you cannot understand the Christian gospel if you believe in purgatory. The idea of still having sins that need to be dealt with after death, whether you want to call it atonement, purification, cleansing, whatever word you prefer, it goes directly against the Christian gospel. You showed me some passages in the Bible that mention a refining fire but you never told me why you believe that the mention of a refining fire must mean that Christians who die will go to purgatory because Jesus' atonement was not enough to take care of this remaining sin. The passages you cited do not say anything about it.

Catholic: If the canon of the Bible was determined by God then tell me which verse of the Bible says that? I don't want to change the topic either. I wonder you keep on repeating something I already answered. When you become a believer your sins were atoned by Christ on the cross. But you still keep on sinning. If you think these sins will also be atoned by Christ then you nullify Heb. 10:26 and distort the Gospel. By stating they are cleansed through purgatory then I do not nullify that verse. Why does Scripture call God as refiner's fire then?

Me: Which verse says that Rome can determine the canon? The reason you're even asking me is you don't understand what canon means. The author determines which books are his and which ones are not because he's the author. Another person can't come along later and make that decision. I know you think Rome gave the Bible to the church but God is the one who gave the Bible to the church. There was no Roman Catholic Church for many centuries after the apostles. Again I ask you why did it take Rome 1500 years to make a decision about canon? Do you think nobody knew which books were inspired until the Council of Trent finally made a decision?

I'm asking you where in the texts that you cited are you getting the idea that a purification takes place after you die. You have not answered that question. Why do you assume refiner's fire = purgatory? Hebrews 10:26 is not a proof text for you because you're removing it from its context just like you're doing with the other texts. It says nothing about being purified after death. You asked me "Why does Scripture call God as refiner's fire then?" Because God is the one who purifies sinners. But I keep asking you why you think this takes place after your death. I gave you a chance to use 2 Maccabees but you shoved it away by telling me that it was under the old covenant. Malachi and Zechariah were old covenant too but you seem okay with those. Then you cite Hebrews 10 as if it answers my question but it says nothing about post-death purification. That's why I keep trying to get you to answer the actual question I'm asking you. From where in those texts are you getting the idea that any kind of refining takes place AFTER DEATH?

Catholic: As usual instead of answering my question, you ask me another question. This is common trick to hide inability to give an answer. And you are not the first person who does it. I repeat my question to you: How do you know that the Bible has 66 books? If God told you tell me when and how? Before you answer this question I will not entertain your question.

You are entitled to disagree with my answer. I am also entitled to disagree on what you wrote about those verses. The Old Covenant of Law is ONLY embedded in five books of Moses and applicable after Moses received it. Malachi and Zechariah belong to the Prophets and are NOT part of it. Both prophets and even Jesus, before he inaugurated the New Covenant still live under this Covenant of Law. Jesus Himself was circumcised, observed Sabbaths, wore tassel required by Law in Num 15:37-40.

Me: You're the one refusing to answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer this entire time. You keep saying the same thing as if you're answering it but you're not. Anyone who reads this thread will see what you're doing. You are the one who keeps dodging it and I keep trying to steer you back to it over and over again. PURIFICATION AFTER DEATH IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. That's the point of the question I keep asking. And that's the reason I say if you believe in purgatory you do not understand the gospel. You're either all the way saved right now or you are all the way damned right now. Either you're a believer or you're not. Either Jesus took care of your sins or He didn't. You cite scripture out of context as if it teaches purgatory and it does not even come close to teaching purgatory. You see the term "refiner's fire" and you insert Roman Catholic purgatory into it. It's eisegesis rather than exegesis. It's an abuse of the words of God.

How do I know that the Bible has 66 books? First of all we have the Old Testament which was entrusted to the Jews. So we can trust those books. For the same reason we can know that the apocrypha should be rejected, because the Jews never considered them scripture. They were only used as edifying stories for the Jews. Those books were not kept in the place of reverence where the holy scrolls were kept. They were never treated as God's words like scripture is. So we reject the extra books that the Roman Catholic Bible added in the 1500's, also known as the apocrypha. So there's the 39 books of the Old Testament.

As for the New Testament: We have the 4 gospels which were never doubted as being authentic by anyone in the early church. It was well known and fully understood that those 4 books were legitimate. And for the same reason of pedigree, Acts and the other books written by Apostles were accepted because there was zero doubt as to where they originated. Revelation was debated but accepted by the very first Christians and has been canon ever since. So there's the 27 books of the New Testament. There was not a bishop of Rome sitting on his throne making grand determinations on behalf of Christendom. The idea of a pope didn't even exist yet. As I keep saying there was no Roman Catholic Church yet. Then after the apostolic age, much much later, "other gospels" began to circulate. The Christians were never fooled by those fake books because they already had the God-breathed scripture and could immediately recognize the fakes. Sure enough there were certain groups that went out and were deceived, but the core of believers has always known and recognized God's voice in His Word, the Bible. There was no pope guiding the church, and they didn't need a council to tell them, they already knew and could distinguish between the word of God, and the fake books. Once again I know you think Rome gave the Bible to the church, but once again that's not true. It's a Roman Catholic fantasy. God gave the Bible to the church. So for the third time now, I'm asking you yet again, and you have totally ignored this question so far, WHY DID IT TAKE ROME 1500 YEARS TO DETERMINE THEIR CANON?

I know you want to change the subject in any way you can, but I'm bringing it back to purgatory once again. I'm ultimately telling you that you do not have the Christian gospel. That's the main point here. If you believe in purgatory, you are not believing in Jesus for your salvation because on some level you don't think He can handle all of your sin. You think to some degree that you have to work for your salvation, or at some level you are responsible to do something, some kind of deeds, rituals, ceremonies, acts of piety, acts of service, veneration, confessions, masses, rosaries, whatever you think you are required to do in order to reduce your time in purgatory or someone else's time in purgatory, to that degree you are not believing in Jesus Christ and you are rejecting the gospel of salvation by grace through faith. To some degree you are not trusting Jesus, even if you think He did most of it or almost all of it. If you aren't trusting in Him 100% you are not saved. That's the point. So I'm saying you don't trust Jesus enough. Would you say I trust Jesus too much?

Catholic: I don't want to change the subject. You did NOT answer my question because you are NOT able to answer it. Scripture nowhere says that Old Testament has 39 books and New Testament has 27 books.

Catholics do not work for our salvation. It is by grace we are saved. Purgatory is act of God - it is Him who cleanses us as described in Zech 13:8-9.

Once you predecided that you don't accept purgatory and the Bible has only 66 books, then of course no amount of information, even from Scripture, will make you change your mind.

Me: I gave you my answer. I believe the same OT canon that the Jews believed, and I believe the NT canon because of its pedigree and the fact that the early church never had any disputes over it. I'm not letting you change the topic. Zechariah 13 says:

"1 On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, to CLEANSE THEM from sin and uncleanness. 2 “And ON THAT DAY, declares the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness. 3 And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 “ON THAT DAY every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive, 5 but he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.’ 6 And if one asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your back?’ he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends.’

7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,

against the man who stands next to me,”

declares the Lord of hosts.

“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;

I will turn my hand against the little ones.

8 IN THE WHOLE LAND, declares the Lord,

TWO THIRDS shall be cut off and perish,

and ONE THIRD shall be left alive.

9 And I will put THIS THIRD into the fire,

and refine them as one refines silver,

and test them as gold is tested.

THEY will call upon my name,

and I will answer them.

I will say, ‘They are my people’;

and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Now show me where that entire chapter mentions anyone being purified, or needed purification, AFTER THEIR DEATH, in order to be cleansed of some amount of unrighteousness. Show me from the text where there is a place called purgatory where dead believers must endure a purifying fire because they died with sins still on them which Jesus is unable to cleanse. It's not in there. You know it's not in there. Rome says you must believe it, so you believe it. It has nothing to do with what the Bible says. You believe it because you MUST believe it. This was declared by the Council of Trent in the 1500's, the same council that declared the Roman Catholic canon of scripture, which I have asked you 3 times so far and here goes the 4th time now, WHY DID IT TAKE ROME 1500 YEARS TO DO THIS? One must believe in purgatory because Rome has declared it. Anyone who rejects purgatory is anathema. I will quote Trent. "30. If anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this world or in the other, in purgatory, before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven, anathema sit [“let him be anathema” or excommunicated].

Catholic: Verse 9 says so. It does not say purgatory just like Scripture does not say Trinity.

I will answer your question after you answer my question: How do you know that the Bible has only 66 books? It is simple and basic question.

You are not Catholics, why you are so bothered by Trent? You reject purgatory because you are taught so. You accepted 66 books of the Bible and Trinity because your are taught so. Once you reject something then no amount of verses of explanation will satisfy you. Once you accept something, then you believe it even Scripture does not explicitly says so. You are wasting your time and mine

Me: I answered your canon question. I'm not letting you change the topic from Zechariah. Verse 9 says "I will put THIS THIRD into the fire..." What is it a third of? One third of what? Or one third of who? Show it to me in the text who is being called "one third".

Catholic: You try again to change the topic. The point in that verse is "INTO THE FIRE" to be refined as silver and tested as gold.

Me: It's a simple question. Who is going into the fire in verse 9? This is so plain and obvious to anyone who simply reads the words on the page and doesn't try to insert foreign concepts into it. It says right in the text "I will put THIS THIRD into the fire" The third is the same third from verse 8. "IN THE WHOLE LAND, declares the Lord, TWO THIRDS shall be cut off and perish, and ONE THIRD shall be left alive" One third of the whole land of Jerusalem. Zechariah says who he's talking about at the beginning of the chapter. "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, to CLEANSE THEM from sin and uncleanness." This is not a proof text for purgatory, not even close. It's a text about 1/3 of the people of Jerusalem being cleansed. And by the way it specifically says they are alive when this happens. "ONE THIRD shall be left alive"

Catholic: You miss the point. Whoever they are and regardless the number, they must go into fire to be refined like silver and to be tested like gold. Purgatory or purification, if you prefer to call it, is not condemnation. Those who undergo are NOT dead.

Me: Are their hearts beating? Are they breathing air into their lungs? No, their corpses are rotting in a grave. You know what we're talking about. Don't play games. People who are supposedly in purgatory are dead and their souls are in a place called purgatory being burned with fire. This text makes a very clear distinction between 2/3 being dead and 1/3 being kept alive and cleansed. And it very clearly says that this is happening to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Rome is telling you to insert all the rest.

Catholic: according to what Jesus said in Mat. 10:28 only those in hell are both died in the body and died in the soul. Those in heaven and in purification, their souls are alive even though their bodies died.

Me: In Matthew 10 Jesus says hell is the place where God destroys people both body and soul. And those who aren't in hell are in heaven. Where does Jesus ever say there's a third place which is neither heaven nor hell where His sheep will undergo purification or cleansing before they can enter heaven? It certainly doesn't say anything about it in Zechariah, so now that you mention Matthew please show me purgatory in Matthew.

Catholic: Mat 18 neither prove nor disprove purgatory. Where was the thief crucified with Christ after he died? Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise. Yet after His resurrection (John 20:17) told Mary Magdalene that He had not ascended to heaven (the Father). Where was the thief then?

Me: He went to the place the Jews called Abraham's Bosom or "Paradise". That's where every saint under the Old Covenant went when they died. Atonement had not yet been made so that they could enter the dwelling place of God or what we commonly call "Heaven" today.

Jesus describes hades as having 2 sections in Luke 16. One was a place of comfort for believers and the other is a place of torment for everyone else. The people in torment are waiting for judgement day when they will be resurrected into their permanent incorruptible bodies and then condemned to the lake of fire forever. As Revelation says the last thing God will do is cast death and hades into the lake of fire. Since Jesus accomplished His work on earth, after He ascended to the holiest place and presented His sacrifice to the Father on behalf of anyone who believes in Him, believers go directly to Heaven into the presence of God. I believe the thief was only in Abraham's Bosom for a short time, until Jesus ascended and completed His work and gained access to Heaven for believers.

At this present time the place called Abraham's Bosom is empty and those souls are in Heaven awaiting the Day of the Lord when they will be resurrected and given eternal bodies. We believers are fully cleansed and fully forgiven right now. We HAVE eternal life right now because we believe in Jesus who took away all of our sins past, present, and future. We believe Jesus is that powerful. Believers can enter into the presence of God because He has adopted us into His family and given us the righteousness required to enter heaven through faith in Jesus. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father right now ruling as King of kings and Lord of lords, and He is mediating for believers. We can go to Him and confess directly to God and Jesus is always faithful to intercede by the Spirit and cleanse us from our sins. Anyone who believes in Him for their salvation will be doing this as a lifestyle. We live a lifestyle of repentance where we always turning to Christ. This is salvation by grace through faith, the Christian gospel. He gives us spiritual life and gives us His Holy Spirit to dwell in us and conform us to the image of Christ. Believe in Jesus and be free. If anyone believes in purgatory they cannot also believe this gospel because they think there's still something left undone in Christ's accomplishment. You are not believing that you can go to Christ and be cleansed like 1 John 1:9 says. The work is finished. Rest in Christ as the fulfillment of the Sabbath. When you die you are either saved and go directly into Heaven, or you are not saved and you go directly into torment.

Catholic: Good answer! You should note that there are other state beside heaven and hell. Scripture nowhere says the bosom of Abraham was emptied after Christ ascended into heaven. It is just assumption.

You believe that you do not and cannot become righteous. You always fall short of God's standard and the only solution is accepting Christ righteousness through faith alone imputed on you. You remain sinners and are only righteous externally. That is why you cannot accept purgatory. You do not need it. Your sins are already covered by Christ righteousness. Even God the Father won't be able to see them. That explains why you say you rely on finished work of Christ on the cross. Solus Christ's is one sola of the five sola's of Reformation.

Catholics, on the hand, believe that God through Christ makes us righteous (Rom. 5:19). Jesus said in Mat. 25:46 that the righteous shall go to eternal life. Ezekiel 33:12 says the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. Scripture also says in 1 John 5:16-17 that there are deadly and non-deadly sins. That is why Christ gave the authority to forgive sin to the Church (John 20:21-23), through which our sins are forgiven and we regain our righteous state back. Proverbs. 10:2 says righteousness delivers from death. When we die with non-deadly sins, they must be cleansed to make us righteous and this is where purgatory comes in, because nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27).

Even Piper and the late Sproul talked about purification after death. While they did not and would refuse to call it purgatory, it is purification after death.

Scripture cannot stand alone. You need X to (1) determine the canon and (2) to interpret it. Your X could be you or your pastor or your church or the Reformers or any combination of some or all of them. My X is the the Catholic Church. The dispute why I believe in purgatory and you don't is we have different X.

Me: I copied and pasted the entire chapter of Zechariah 13 and simply read the words as they appear. I didn't need to do any fancy tricks with the words or allegorize it to mean something else, or add any of my predetermined beliefs to the text. All I did was read it and accept what it clearly and plainly says, which by the way, was always the JEWISH understanding of that text. The Jews did not believe in purgatory and would think you were nuts for thinking that's what Zechariah had in mind when he wrote those words, or that God was teaching them about a place of purification which is neither Heaven nor hell. It does not say people go to a place of purification after this life because they're not pure enough to enter Heaven yet. The Bible never says this. It's something Roman Catholicism introduced WAY WAY after the apostles.

I thank you for finally conceding to the fact that Rome is your ultimate authority and not scripture. If Rome is the one "interpreting" everything for you, then Rome is in a position of authority OVER the words of God Himself. This is a grave error my friend. Rome can add a dogma and you would have no choice but to believe it whether it makes any sense or even if it is contrary to scripture and you must believe it because Rome is your authority instead of the God-breathed words of scripture. Roman Catholicism is a growing religion that has slowly been changing into something else over time. It's been growing away from Christianity as it adds more unbiblical beliefs. One of the most recent additions happened when Rome pronounced that you must believe Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven. That was only within the past couple of centuries. Now you have a pope who says atheists go to Heaven simply because they baptised their children, without any faith whatsoever in Jesus Christ, which is something no pope before him would have ever said. This pope says "who am I to judge" when asked about homosexuals. That's who you're really turning to instead of Jesus Christ. You trust men more than you trust the Lord. Repent and believe the gospel. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

You've been refuted. The scripture you use is being taken out of context. It says nothing about purification after death. It is talking about a day when God would judge the inhabitants of Jerusalem by killing 2/3 of them and purifying the other 1/3. If you think you still have sins that haven't been cleansed, and you think that they will need to be purified after you die because you're not pure enough to enter heaven, then you do not understand the Christian gospel. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

*He never responded*

Me: To understand why I took this position you can read the Catholic document called Indulgentiarum Doctrina where it clearly says expiation takes place in purgatory. I hope this thread will be helpful for the Christians who read it. Scripture will always prove the falsehood of aberrant doctrines. Reading scripture in context and having the reverence for it to not twist it or try to force it to say something it doesn't say is how we show respect to the words of God. Abusing scripture is disrespectful to God. We can always use it to demonstrate false doctrines by respecting it and allowing it to say what it says, and then conforming our beliefs to what it says even when it's uncomfortable. There is no authority higher than God, and we have nothing else on earth that is God-breathed other than scripture. Rome has no authority over scripture. Scripture is supposed to have authority over Rome but Rome is apostate.

This is an earnest plea to all Roman Catholics. Please take the time to watch this video and think carefully about it: https://youtu.be/utIAnY5I8CU